Tipping and being a foreigner in the US

Tipping and being a foreigner in the US posted by TanyaD9191 - on May 28, 2009 at 2:11 PM Sorry, but when did restaurants in the US decide that it would be acceptable to confront foreign diners and insult our intelligence by giving us a card that explains tipping to us. We get it. If we are not tipping, its because we think, as we say in the UK, that your service is pants! i.e rubbish and not worth the excessive 15% that you are demanding. We think Americans are nuts for paying 15% on top of your meal, its extortionate and is mostly not deserved. Waiters! Dont like getting the minimum wage? Get a job in a different sector. Simples! Gggggrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrr Love and cook with reckless abandon

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• Kirk - replied on May 28, 2009 at 3:24 PM Tanya, As you know, in the UK and Europe, the tip is usually factored into the bill total - so additional tipping is not necessary, unless it was warranted by extraordinary service. Plus, there are guidebooks to London, that suggest a 15% tip in restaurants that do not include service in the total. At least in the States, the patron has the option of tipping according to the level of service provided. Thus, if you left nothing for a tip, you must have received exceptionally poor service. So why the complaint?? When service is already factored into the total, you're stuck with paying the service amount, no matter how poor the service.  Also, something I'm sure you do not know, certain States exclude tipped employees from receiving the minimum wage. You may not appreciate the customs in the U.S., however you know the old saying, "when in Rome."

  Kirk - Torrance, CA Member Since: May 2000 Total Posts: 368 See Kirk -'s Profile Find Posts By Kirk - Save User as Favorite

  Reply to this Post Save Post as Favorite Report This Post Post Reply close You are replying to Kirk -'s post. Quote Kirk -'s post in your message. Your Message Spell Check Your Zagat Links To attach ZAGAT links to your message, search for properties below. Attach ZAGAT links to your message (optional) To attach ZAGAT links to your message, search for properties below. Find a Property Name (required) City, State, Country Find You are replying to Kirk -'s post. Quote Kirk -'s post in your message. Your Message Spell Check Tanya, As you know, in the UK and Europe, the tip is usually factored into the bill total - so additional tipping is not necessary, unless it was warranted by extraordinary service. Plus, there are guidebooks to London, that suggest a 15% tip in restaurants that do not include service in the total. At least in the States, the patron has the option of tipping according to the level of service provided. Thus, if you left nothing for a tip, you must have received exceptionally poor service. So why the complaint?? When service is already factored into the total, you're stuck with paying the service amount, no matter how poor the service. Also, something I'm sure you do not know, certain States exclude tipped employees from receiving the minimum wage. You may not appreciate the customs in the U.S., however you know the old saying, "when in Rome." Your Zagat Links To attach ZAGAT links to your message, search for properties below. Attach ZAGAT links to your message (optional) To attach ZAGAT links to your message, search for properties below. Find a Property Name (required) City, State, Country Find Cancel Post

• judil1229354 replied on Jun. 3, 2009 at 8:17 PM some people like being part of the service industry and it's a respectable livelihood. those in the industry earn less than $3.00 (u.s) an hour and tips are their income. it's not automatically added on as in the u.k. and europe,so we're not paying an extra 15% on top of a tip already included. if you were aware of that when you ate in american restaurants then you shouldn't have been insulted and just taken the card as a reminder of american customs. and all the service you had in all the restaurants in america could not all have been "pants." as kirk said,"when in rome..." in a perfect world, restaurant owners would pay their workers livable wages and we'd be able to get rid of the whole tipping thing all together. oh, by the way, in nyc ~ we tip 20%

  judil1229354 Flushing, NY Member Since: May 2002 Total Posts: 1 See judil1229354's Profile Find Posts By judil1229354 Save User as Favorite

  Reply to this Post Save Post as Favorite Report This Post Post Reply close You are replying to judil1229354's post. Quote judil1229354's post in your message. Your Message Spell Check Your Zagat Links To attach ZAGAT links to your message, search for properties below. Attach ZAGAT links to your message (optional) To attach ZAGAT links to your message, search for properties below. Find a Property Name (required) City, State, Country Find You are replying to judil1229354's post. Quote judil1229354's post in your message. Your Message Spell Check some people like being part of the service industry and it's a respectable livelihood. those in the industry earn less than $3.00 (u.s) an hour and tips are their income. it's not automatically added on as in the u.k. and europe,so we're not paying an extra 15% on top of a tip already included. if you were aware of that when you ate in american restaurants then you shouldn't have been insulted and just taken the card as a reminder of american customs. and all the service you had in all the restaurants in america could not all have been "pants." as kirk said,"when in rome..." in a perfect world, restaurant owners would pay their workers livable wages and we'd be able to get rid of the whole tipping thing all together. oh, by the way, in nyc ~ we tip 20% Your Zagat Links To attach ZAGAT links to your message, search for properties below. Attach ZAGAT links to your message (optional) To attach ZAGAT links to your message, search for properties below. Find a Property Name (required) City, State, Country Find Cancel Post

• Bolfer replied on Jun. 4, 2009 at 1:18 AM What's even more "Grrrr" (as TanyaD says), was when the reverse happens... I was the foreigner (in Cayman), and they did not bother to let us know 15% was "customarily" added to the bill, so they got a free extra 15 -20% until we picked up on it. Bums. Agree 20% is the norm for decent, expected level of service, especially for dinner. Personally, I often tip well over 20% when the service is excellent, or when I get very good service at a lower cost meal where 20% might mean a couple bucks for a lot of work. The extra little bit hardly changes the overall tab, but really drives home a point to a good server, especially in this economy where they are likely among the most affected. Some of my friends subtract the wine before figuring the tip. What's the standard there?

  Bolfer Wheaton, IL Member Since: Aug 2008 Total Posts: 4 See Bolfer's Profile Find Posts By Bolfer Save User as Favorite

  Reply to this Post Save Post as Favorite Report This Post Post Reply close You are replying to Bolfer's post. Quote Bolfer's post in your message. Your Message Spell Check Your Zagat Links To attach ZAGAT links to your message, search for properties below. Attach ZAGAT links to your message (optional) To attach ZAGAT links to your message, search for properties below. Find a Property Name (required) City, State, Country Find You are replying to Bolfer's post. Quote Bolfer's post in your message. Your Message Spell Check What's even more "Grrrr" (as TanyaD says), was when the reverse happens... I was the foreigner (in Cayman), and they did not bother to let us know 15% was "customarily" added to the bill, so they got a free extra 15 -20% until we picked up on it. Bums. Agree 20% is the norm for decent, expected level of service, especially for dinner. Personally, I often tip well over 20% when the service is excellent, or when I get very good service at a lower cost meal where 20% might mean a couple bucks for a lot of work. The extra little bit hardly changes the overall tab, but really drives home a point to a good server, especially in this economy where they are likely among the most affected. Some of my friends subtract the wine before figuring the tip. What's the standard there? Your Zagat Links To attach ZAGAT links to your message, search for properties below. Attach ZAGAT links to your message (optional) To attach ZAGAT links to your message, search for properties below. Find a Property Name (required) City, State, Country Find Cancel Post

• SimonG1854 replied on Jun. 4, 2009 at 7:20 AM As a Brit who lived several years in the USA I've always found tipping something really difficult to explain to my compatriots. The idea of paying 20% on top of your bill as routine can make people apoplectic. I think its because in Europe when you see a price listed (on a menu, in a shop) if what you pay is more than is written, it is perceived as a ripoff. Of course in the USA you never assume that - even retail shopping never includes sales tax so you almost always expect to pay more. Having said that, many British restaurants have nasty little tricks of their own - charging extra for bread, discouraging the drinking of non-bottled water, charging extra for vegetables, sometimes even charging extra for sauces! And that trick of adding a 10% service charge then leaving the credit card slip open for an extra tip is still common. I've wearily explained this many times but I am afraid it really boils down to cultural differences and insularity. I do try and point out that part of the upside for the British tourist is that you typically get dramatically better service experience in American restaurants but the insular foreigner (accustomed to years of unhelpful and slow waiting staff) complains of them being too obsequious!

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• MatthewC1563 replied on Jun. 4, 2009 at 9:56 PM It's not just a cultural thing, some of us locals hate it. You want a tip for opening my beer?? You expect 20% when the service was fair or poor, and more for good service? If you need more to make a living, just charge more. A tip is for service, nothing else.

  MatthewC1563 Philadelphia, PA Member Since: Feb 2008 Total Posts: 1 See MatthewC1563's Profile Find Posts By MatthewC1563 Save User as Favorite

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• deniseb4423 replied on Jun. 20, 2009 at 9:22 AM "Agree 20% is the norm for decent, expected level of service, especially for dinner." Since when has the standard raised from 10/15-20%? I am a US resident who is totally against tipping, after visiting the UK and seeing the difference in level of service between the two. In the UK, the service is professional, friendly, and the servers truly love their job. In the US, 99% of the time, the service is less than desired, and servers all possess a sense of entitlement to additional money. I generally do not tip, and have even been chased to the lobby by rude servers demanding tips. I believe that "tipping" is extortion and reform in the hospitality industry is required. Establishment owners have been paying below poverty level wages far too long and expecting citizens of the US to subsidize their poor wages in the form of "Tips". In my career I am expected to perform at optimum levels at all times, without tips! In most careers this is the norm, so why the sense of entitlement in this industry? It is insulting to professionals in all industries..

  deniseb4423 Colleyville, TX Member Since: Jun 2009 Total Posts: 1 See deniseb4423's Profile Find Posts By deniseb4423 Save User as Favorite

  Reply to this Post Save Post as Favorite Report This Post Post Reply close You are replying to deniseb4423's post. Quote deniseb4423's post in your message. Your Message Spell Check Your Zagat Links To attach ZAGAT links to your message, search for properties below. Attach ZAGAT links to your message (optional) To attach ZAGAT links to your message, search for properties below. Find a Property Name (required) City, State, Country Find You are replying to deniseb4423's post. Quote deniseb4423's post in your message. Your Message Spell Check "Agree 20% is the norm for decent, expected level of service, especially for dinner." Since when has the standard raised from 10/15-20%? I am a US resident who is totally against tipping, after visiting the UK and seeing the difference in level of service between the two. In the UK, the service is professional, friendly, and the servers truly love their job. In the US, 99% of the time, the service is less than desired, and servers all possess a sense of entitlement to additional money. I generally do not tip, and have even been chased to the lobby by rude servers demanding tips. I believe that "tipping" is extortion and reform in the hospitality industry is required. Establishment owners have been paying below poverty level wages far too long and expecting citizens of the US to subsidize their poor wages in the form of "Tips". In my career I am expected to perform at optimum levels at all times, without tips! In most careers this is the norm, so why the sense of entitlement in this industry? It is insulting to professionals in all industries.. Your Zagat Links To attach ZAGAT links to your message, search for properties below. Attach ZAGAT links to your message (optional) To attach ZAGAT links to your message, search for properties below. Find a Property Name (required) City, State, Country Find Cancel Post

• Kirk - replied on Jun. 20, 2009 at 12:09 PM So, you tip servers in the UK, but not in the States, and your solution for employers paying poor wages in the U.S., is to penalize the employee by refusing to tip?!? I don't know what types of restaurant you frequent, however your statement that service in the U.S., is less than desirable 99% of the time, is laughable - and I'm extremely particular about service. I dine out 7 days a week for lunch and at least 5 nights a week for dinner, and generally receive good to outstanding service. Sure, service issues do arise, however I find that the level and frequency of service in the U.S., is no different than in the U.K.

  Kirk - Torrance, CA Member Since: May 2000 Total Posts: 368 See Kirk -'s Profile Find Posts By Kirk - Save User as Favorite

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• CellarRat replied on Jun. 24, 2009 at 8:19 PM deniseb4423 wrote: "Agree 20% is the norm for decent, expected level of service, especially for dinner." Since when has the standard raised from 10/15-20%? I am a US resident who is totally against tipping, after visiting the UK and seeing the difference in level of service between the two. In the UK, the service is professional, friendly, and the servers truly love their job. In the US, 99% of the time, the service is less than desired, and servers all possess a sense of entitlement to additional money. I generally do not tip, and have even been chased to the lobby by rude servers demanding tips. I believe that "tipping" is extortion and reform in the hospitality industry is required. Establishment owners have been paying below poverty level wages far too long and expecting citizens of the US to subsidize their poor wages in the form of "Tips". In my career I am expected to perform at optimum levels at all times, without tips! In most careers this is the norm, so why the sense of entitlement in this industry? It is insulting to professionals in all industries..   Seriously? So you're the cheapass all the servers are talking about then, eh? I assure you that I work ridiculously hard for that $2.83/hr. and tips are the primary source of my income. I'm there for two hours before the restaurant opens setting up, and for two hours after all the customers are gone, cleaning up. And I'm not working my way through college or grad school or waiting for my next audition to pay off with a big break. I am a Restaurant Professional and damned proud of it. I've been in the restaurant industry for 17 years and been everything from a waiter, to a manager, to a beverage director for a group of restaurants to a corporate controller for restaurants, in addition to bartending. Some of those positions are salaried, but serving positions are NOT. Do I wish I made a living wage? Sure I do, but the owners of independent restaurants and restaurant corporations have a lot more lobbying power than the folks making less than minimum wage, so that isn't going to change anytime soon. Penalizing the waitstaff because you don't "believe" in the system is just cruel. I don't know what it is you do for a living, but imagine virtually your entire paycheck being determined by the whims, mood or "belief system" of your clients/customers. You think you could pay your mortgage then? Add to that no health insurance or 401K for virtually every employee besides corporate restaurant managers.  For the record, most folks understand that tipping is only "voluntary" in the semantic sense. My tip average is between 25-30% most nights, due to the level of service I provide. But not tipping is just plain not paying for service at all. And sadly, that's the way the system is set up in most states. Get with the program. If your service isn't worthy of complaining to management about, then it is the customer's responsibilty to tip appropriately. Otherwise restaurant's would have to raise their prices. There are a lot of things in this culture that are "understood" to be customary. Just like not speaking too loudly at the theater or urinating in public. You can choose to ignore customary behavior if you'd like, but you will be thought an ass for doing so. Tipping is the same.

  CellarRat Philadelphia, PA Member Since: Mar 2000 Total Posts: 5 See CellarRat's Profile Find Posts By CellarRat Save User as Favorite

  Reply to this Post Save Post as Favorite Report This Post Post Reply close You are replying to CellarRat's post. Quote CellarRat's post in your message. Your Message Spell Check Your Zagat Links To attach ZAGAT links to your message, search for properties below. Attach ZAGAT links to your message (optional) To attach ZAGAT links to your message, search for properties below. Find a Property Name (required) City, State, Country Find You are replying to CellarRat's post. Quote CellarRat's post in your message. Your Message Spell Check [b]deniseb4423 wrote:[/b] [i]"Agree 20% is the norm for decent, expected level of service, especially for dinner." Since when has the standard raised from 10/15-20%? I am a US resident who is totally against tipping, after visiting the UK and seeing the difference in level of service between the two. In the UK, the service is professional, friendly, and the servers truly love their job. In the US, 99% of the time, the service is less than desired, and servers all possess a sense of entitlement to additional money. I generally do not tip, and have even been chased to the lobby by rude servers demanding tips. I believe that "tipping" is extortion and reform in the hospitality industry is required. Establishment owners have been paying below poverty level wages far too long and expecting citizens of the US to subsidize their poor wages in the form of "Tips". In my career I am expected to perform at optimum levels at all times, without tips! In most careers this is the norm, so why the sense of entitlement in this industry? It is insulting to professionals in all industries..[/i] Seriously? So you're the cheapass all the servers are talking about then, eh? I assure you that I work ridiculously hard for that $2.83/hr. and tips are the primary source of my income. I'm there for two hours before the restaurant opens setting up, and for two hours after all the customers are gone, cleaning up. And I'm not working my way through college or grad school or waiting for my next audition to pay off with a big break. I am a Restaurant Professional and damned proud of it. I've been in the restaurant industry for 17 years and been everything from a waiter, to a manager, to a beverage director for a group of restaurants to a corporate controller for restaurants, in addition to bartending. Some of those positions are salaried, but serving positions are NOT. Do I wish I made a living wage? Sure I do, but the owners of independent restaurants and restaurant corporations have a lot more lobbying power than the folks making less than minimum wage, so that isn't going to change anytime soon. Penalizing the waitstaff because you don't "believe" in the system is just cruel. I don't know what it is you do for a living, but imagine virtually your entire paycheck being determined by the whims, mood or "belief system" of your clients/customers. You think you could pay your mortgage then? Add to that no health insurance or 401K for virtually every employee besides corporate restaurant managers. For the record, most folks understand that tipping is only "voluntary" in the semantic sense. My tip average is between 25-30% most nights, due to the level of service I provide. But not tipping is just plain not paying for service at all. And sadly, that's the way the system is set up in most states. Get with the program. If your service isn't worthy of complaining to management about, then it is the customer's responsibilty to tip appropriately. Otherwise restaurant's would have to raise their prices. There are a lot of things in this culture that are "understood" to be customary. Just like not speaking too loudly at the theater or urinating in public. You can choose to ignore customary behavior if you'd like, but you will be thought an ass for doing so. Tipping is the same. Your Zagat Links To attach ZAGAT links to your message, search for properties below. Attach ZAGAT links to your message (optional) To attach ZAGAT links to your message, search for properties below. Find a Property Name (required) City, State, Country Find Cancel Post

• AmyQ5579 replied on Jun. 25, 2009 at 4:31 PM TanyaD9191 wrote: Sorry, but when did restaurants in the US decide that it would be acceptable to confront foreign diners and insult our intelligence by giving us a card that explains tipping to us. We get it. If we are not tipping, its because we think, as we say in the UK, that your service is pants! i.e rubbish and not worth the excessive 15% that you are demanding. We think Americans are nuts for paying 15% on top of your meal, its extortionate and is mostly not deserved. Waiters! Dont like getting the minimum wage? Get a job in a different sector. Simples! Gggggrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrr   Actually, a 15% gratuity is considered low if everything in your dining experience was "Spot On". This is not a new thing that we now use to "extort" money from you, our guest. It is important to acknowledge that many people who wait tables do it because they enjoy being around great food, wine, and those who also enjoy these things. If your server was knowledgable, helpful, professional, friendly, and you enjoyed yourself, then it is insulting to ignore this aspect of our culture. Most states in the U.S. pay LESS THAN minimum wage beacuse servers make tips, and then are taxed on their sales. If you can't observe and adhere to this American custom, then please keep quiet when we travel to your area and insult your customs (and incomes). And please don't ask people to leave their job sector so that you can save a buck.

  AmyQ5579 Phoenix, AZ Member Since: Jun 2009 Total Posts: 2 See AmyQ5579's Profile Find Posts By AmyQ5579 Save User as Favorite

  Reply to this Post Save Post as Favorite Report This Post Post Reply close You are replying to AmyQ5579's post. Quote AmyQ5579's post in your message. Your Message Spell Check Your Zagat Links To attach ZAGAT links to your message, search for properties below. Attach ZAGAT links to your message (optional) To attach ZAGAT links to your message, search for properties below. Find a Property Name (required) City, State, Country Find You are replying to AmyQ5579's post. Quote AmyQ5579's post in your message. Your Message Spell Check [b]TanyaD9191 wrote:[/b] [i]Sorry, but when did restaurants in the US decide that it would be acceptable to confront foreign diners and insult our intelligence by giving us a card that explains tipping to us. We get it. If we are not tipping, its because we think, as we say in the UK, that your service is pants! i.e rubbish and not worth the excessive 15% that you are demanding. We think Americans are nuts for paying 15% on top of your meal, its extortionate and is mostly not deserved. Waiters! Dont like getting the minimum wage? Get a job in a different sector. Simples! Gggggrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrr[/i] Actually, a 15% gratuity is considered low if everything in your dining experience was "Spot On". This is not a new thing that we now use to "extort" money from you, our guest. It is important to acknowledge that many people who wait tables do it because they enjoy being around great food, wine, and those who also enjoy these things. If your server was knowledgable, helpful, professional, friendly, and you enjoyed yourself, then it is insulting to ignore this aspect of our culture. Most states in the U.S. pay LESS THAN minimum wage beacuse servers make tips, and then are taxed on their sales. If you can't observe and adhere to this American custom, then please keep quiet when we travel to your area and insult your customs (and incomes). And please don't ask people to leave their job sector so that you can save a buck. Your Zagat Links To attach ZAGAT links to your message, search for properties below. Attach ZAGAT links to your message (optional) To attach ZAGAT links to your message, search for properties below. Find a Property Name (required) City, State, Country Find Cancel Post

• yuhs1416944 replied on Jun. 25, 2009 at 10:15 PM I totallly agree. Tip should be for good service and I do proportion my tip according to service. Sorry if I cannot get hold of the waitress, the plates or cutlery is dirty or my food doesn't arrive within 30 min after ordering then there is simply a tip between 5-10% - if at all. We are many here in US that are aggrevated and embarassed over so many lazy waitresses who doesn't get that their job is to be at the service of the customers and if they are rude, lazy and not donig their job they shouldn't expect tip. Maybe if more people would tip according to service then service would be less aggrevating in this country. Sad to say tip is high and service is MISERABLE. Too many waitresses have an attitude, feel entitled, and then they treat the hard working kitchen, bar and bustboys like dirt and don't want to share. Sometimes I do slip a 20% tip to the bustboys when waitresses incapeable.

  yuhs1416944 Princeton, NJ Member Since: Feb 2005 Total Posts: 1 See yuhs1416944's Profile Find Posts By yuhs1416944 Save User as Favorite

  Reply to this Post Save Post as Favorite Report This Post Post Reply close You are replying to yuhs1416944's post. Quote yuhs1416944's post in your message. Your Message Spell Check Your Zagat Links To attach ZAGAT links to your message, search for properties below. Attach ZAGAT links to your message (optional) To attach ZAGAT links to your message, search for properties below. Find a Property Name (required) City, State, Country Find You are replying to yuhs1416944's post. Quote yuhs1416944's post in your message. Your Message Spell Check I totallly agree. Tip should be for good service and I do proportion my tip according to service. Sorry if I cannot get hold of the waitress, the plates or cutlery is dirty or my food doesn't arrive within 30 min after ordering then there is simply a tip between 5-10% - if at all. We are many here in US that are aggrevated and embarassed over so many lazy waitresses who doesn't get that their job is to be at the service of the customers and if they are rude, lazy and not donig their job they shouldn't expect tip. Maybe if more people would tip according to service then service would be less aggrevating in this country. Sad to say tip is high and service is MISERABLE. Too many waitresses have an attitude, feel entitled, and then they treat the hard working kitchen, bar and bustboys like dirt and don't want to share. Sometimes I do slip a 20% tip to the bustboys when waitresses incapeable. Your Zagat Links To attach ZAGAT links to your message, search for properties below. Attach ZAGAT links to your message (optional) To attach ZAGAT links to your message, search for properties below. Find a Property Name (required) City, State, Country Find Cancel Post

• Bolfer replied on Jun. 26, 2009 at 3:26 PM Hey there CellarRat, Well said! So.. can I ask your rec, as you are an industry insider? What do you recommend as the tipping formula regarding the wine? Some of my friends subtract the price of bottles of wine. They say that is customary, at least when there was not a sommelier (sp?) or waiter recommendation involved. Thanks, Bolfer

  Bolfer Wheaton, IL Member Since: Aug 2008 Total Posts: 4 See Bolfer's Profile Find Posts By Bolfer Save User as Favorite

  Reply to this Post Save Post as Favorite Report This Post Post Reply close You are replying to Bolfer's post. Quote Bolfer's post in your message. Your Message Spell Check Your Zagat Links To attach ZAGAT links to your message, search for properties below. Attach ZAGAT links to your message (optional) To attach ZAGAT links to your message, search for properties below. Find a Property Name (required) City, State, Country Find You are replying to Bolfer's post. Quote Bolfer's post in your message. Your Message Spell Check Hey there CellarRat, Well said! So.. can I ask your rec, as you are an industry insider? What do you recommend as the tipping formula regarding the wine? Some of my friends subtract the price of bottles of wine. They say that is customary, at least when there was not a sommelier (sp?) or waiter recommendation involved. Thanks, Bolfer Your Zagat Links To attach ZAGAT links to your message, search for properties below. Attach ZAGAT links to your message (optional) To attach ZAGAT links to your message, search for properties below. Find a Property Name (required) City, State, Country Find Cancel Post

• CellarRat replied on Jun. 26, 2009 at 6:08 PM Bolfer wrote: Hey there CellarRat, Well said! So.. can I ask your rec, as you are an industry insider? What do you recommend as the tipping formula regarding the wine? Some of my friends subtract the price of bottles of wine. They say that is customary, at least when there was not a sommelier (sp?) or waiter recommendation involved. Thanks, Bolfer Whether or not there's a sommelier present doesn't really matter. I don't really know anyone that considers it "customary" *not* to tip on the wine. I tend to tip on my total check. That being said, I'm not one to be ordering $400 bottles of wine. I tend to go to BYO restaurants because I trust my own wine selections moreso than many restaurants that don't really have a good selection or are just gouging customers 3 to four times the price of a mediocre bottle. If I were ordering more than one bottle in a given evening, I would calculate a fair percentage for the wine service based on how well it was performed. If both my guests and my own wine glass were filled when needed, if the waiter or sommelier was particularly helpful, etc. I'd likely tip 15% on just the wine and 20% or more on the food portion of the check for truly exceptional service. But subtracting the wine bottles from the check just sounds like another means of getting out of tipping the staff. Again, we are there polishing those wine glasses before the shift and after the guests leave. We're making less than $3/hour. If people can't afford to go out and tip appropriately, then they should stay home or eat at cafeterias.  I'm not condoning the system as it exists, but I have to make ends meet while functioning within it. So does every other poor soul in the well worn shoes. Just tip appropriately. Anyone can complain about the system all they like, but misdirecting anger at restaurant owners that don't want to pay a living wage by punishing those of us that do our jobs well isn't the answer....

  CellarRat Philadelphia, PA Member Since: Mar 2000 Total Posts: 5 See CellarRat's Profile Find Posts By CellarRat Save User as Favorite

  Reply to this Post Save Post as Favorite Report This Post Post Reply close You are replying to CellarRat's post. Quote CellarRat's post in your message. Your Message Spell Check Your Zagat Links To attach ZAGAT links to your message, search for properties below. Attach ZAGAT links to your message (optional) To attach ZAGAT links to your message, search for properties below. Find a Property Name (required) City, State, Country Find You are replying to CellarRat's post. Quote CellarRat's post in your message. Your Message Spell Check [b]Bolfer wrote:[/b] [i]Hey there CellarRat, Well said! So.. can I ask your rec, as you are an industry insider? What do you recommend as the tipping formula regarding the wine? Some of my friends subtract the price of bottles of wine. They say that is customary, at least when there was not a sommelier (sp?) or waiter recommendation involved. Thanks, Bolfer[/i] Whether or not there's a sommelier present doesn't really matter. I don't really know anyone that considers it "customary" *not* to tip on the wine. I tend to tip on my total check. That being said, I'm not one to be ordering $400 bottles of wine. I tend to go to BYO restaurants because I trust my own wine selections moreso than many restaurants that don't really have a good selection or are just gouging customers 3 to four times the price of a mediocre bottle. If I were ordering more than one bottle in a given evening, I would calculate a fair percentage for the wine service based on how well it was performed. If both my guests and my own wine glass were filled when needed, if the waiter or sommelier was particularly helpful, etc. I'd likely tip 15% on just the wine and 20% or more on the food portion of the check for truly exceptional service. But subtracting the wine bottles from the check just sounds like another means of getting out of tipping the staff. Again, we are there polishing those wine glasses before the shift and after the guests leave. We're making less than $3/hour. If people can't afford to go out and tip appropriately, then they should stay home or eat at cafeterias. I'm not condoning the system as it exists, but I have to make ends meet while functioning within it. So does every other poor soul in the well worn shoes. Just tip appropriately. Anyone can complain about the system all they like, but misdirecting anger at restaurant owners that don't want to pay a living wage by punishing those of us that do our jobs well isn't the answer.... Your Zagat Links To attach ZAGAT links to your message, search for properties below. Attach ZAGAT links to your message (optional) To attach ZAGAT links to your message, search for properties below. Find a Property Name (required) City, State, Country Find Cancel Post

• Bolfer replied on Jun. 26, 2009 at 7:12 PM Sounds good. I've been told it is 'correct" to tip the sommelier separately. Too complicated. I also do what probably most everybody does: tip on the entire bill (including wine) based on the overall service for the evening. Seems to be two camps... those that tip well and get good service, and those that tip poorly and feel the service should be part of the food tab. I think the customer can shape the experience too. We make it a point to acknowledge the staff by name, make eye contact and smile and say thanks, be frank and clear with our needs, have a laugh and just generally convey the attitude that we appreciate the fact that the staff is providing us a service which makes our experience more enjoyable. Professional staff probably provide great service regardless, but a good customer attitude will make it more fun for both. And for the borderline staff, maybe they step it up a bit sometimes.

  Bolfer Wheaton, IL Member Since: Aug 2008 Total Posts: 4 See Bolfer's Profile Find Posts By Bolfer Save User as Favorite

  Reply to this Post Save Post as Favorite Report This Post Post Reply close You are replying to Bolfer's post. Quote Bolfer's post in your message. Your Message Spell Check Your Zagat Links To attach ZAGAT links to your message, search for properties below. Attach ZAGAT links to your message (optional) To attach ZAGAT links to your message, search for properties below. Find a Property Name (required) City, State, Country Find You are replying to Bolfer's post. Quote Bolfer's post in your message. Your Message Spell Check Sounds good. I've been told it is 'correct" to tip the sommelier separately. Too complicated. I also do what probably most everybody does: tip on the entire bill (including wine) based on the overall service for the evening. Seems to be two camps... those that tip well and get good service, and those that tip poorly and feel the service should be part of the food tab. I think the customer can shape the experience too. We make it a point to acknowledge the staff by name, make eye contact and smile and say thanks, be frank and clear with our needs, have a laugh and just generally convey the attitude that we appreciate the fact that the staff is providing us a service which makes our experience more enjoyable. Professional staff probably provide great service regardless, but a good customer attitude will make it more fun for both. And for the borderline staff, maybe they step it up a bit sometimes. Your Zagat Links To attach ZAGAT links to your message, search for properties below. Attach ZAGAT links to your message (optional) To attach ZAGAT links to your message, search for properties below. Find a Property Name (required) City, State, Country Find Cancel Post

• CellarRat replied on Jun. 26, 2009 at 11:26 PM Bolfer: It *is* correct to tip sommelier directly if there is one. I was responding more to the implication that one shouldn't tip the server by subtracting the wine from the tip calculation if no sommelier exists. After all, the wine doesn't get into the glass by itself, right? Other than a sommelier's more extensive experience and perhaps more expert advice, the waiter provided the same service by presenting the wine to the host, opening wine, having someone taste the wine, pouring for the table, etc, that the sommelier would have. Why shouldn't the server get tipped for that? I know quite a few servers and bartenders that give excellent wine advice even if their job title isn't sommelier. I certainly am delighted to pair wines for a customer when asked, either by the glass for each course or choose a bottle for the table that would compliment what has been ordered. Your point about the guest's adding to their own dining experience is spot on and a point well taken. Nothing makes my job more pleasant than having guests that are clearly there to enjoy the food, the atmosphere, and the company of their dining companions as well as the company of those of us that are serving them and hopefully contributing to their experience that evening. It's a two way street. I believe that is what separates real professionals from the merely adequate servers. Those of us with the passion to share our love of good food, good drink and good cheer are the "lifers" in the restaurant business.

  CellarRat Philadelphia, PA Member Since: Mar 2000 Total Posts: 5 See CellarRat's Profile Find Posts By CellarRat Save User as Favorite

  Reply to this Post Save Post as Favorite Report This Post Post Reply close You are replying to CellarRat's post. Quote CellarRat's post in your message. Your Message Spell Check Your Zagat Links To attach ZAGAT links to your message, search for properties below. Attach ZAGAT links to your message (optional) To attach ZAGAT links to your message, search for properties below. Find a Property Name (required) City, State, Country Find You are replying to CellarRat's post. Quote CellarRat's post in your message. Your Message Spell Check Bolfer: It *is* correct to tip sommelier directly if there is one. I was responding more to the implication that one shouldn't tip the server by subtracting the wine from the tip calculation if no sommelier exists. After all, the wine doesn't get into the glass by itself, right? Other than a sommelier's more extensive experience and perhaps more expert advice, the waiter provided the same service by presenting the wine to the host, opening wine, having someone taste the wine, pouring for the table, etc, that the sommelier would have. Why shouldn't the server get tipped for that? I know quite a few servers and bartenders that give excellent wine advice even if their job title isn't sommelier. I certainly am delighted to pair wines for a customer when asked, either by the glass for each course or choose a bottle for the table that would compliment what has been ordered. Your point about the guest's adding to their own dining experience is spot on and a point well taken. Nothing makes my job more pleasant than having guests that are clearly there to enjoy the food, the atmosphere, and the company of their dining companions as well as the company of those of us that are serving them and hopefully contributing to their experience that evening. It's a two way street. I believe that is what separates real professionals from the merely adequate servers. Those of us with the passion to share our love of good food, good drink and good cheer are the "lifers" in the restaurant business. Your Zagat Links To attach ZAGAT links to your message, search for properties below. Attach ZAGAT links to your message (optional) To attach ZAGAT links to your message, search for properties below. Find a Property Name (required) City, State, Country Find Cancel Post