Zagat Survey Discussions

Number one in NY they say, at $500 to $1000. Can it be that good? A look at the menu didn't suggest it, and the wine prices are outright thievery. Can it be that surveyors who spend that much are embarrassed to admit that it was only "very good"?

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La plus ca change

There is only one way for you to find out. It is impossible to evaluate the quality of any dish or restaurant from just reading a menu.

Perhaps I will consider when the DOW hits 12,000 again. But I was throwing out a serious question, and I do trust that all readers here are familiar with the story of THE EMPEROR'S NEW CLOTHES. Isn't it a rare individual who would spend this kind of money, and then say that the experience was anything less than fantastic? Do the people who dine at Per Se do it because they are genuinely knowledgeable foodies, or because they want to tell their friends that they had been there? Is it merely another case of conspicuous consumption?

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La plus ca change

I was serious. You need a benchmark from which to judge other viewpoints, and you cannot accurately evaluate differing arguments unless you know from which they speak.

I believe the vast majority of individuals who dine at restaurants such as Per Se are knowledgeable foodies who appreciate uncommon creativity. To answer your question, yes I have been to restaurants similarly priced as Per Se, and was not the least bit impressed. I have had intelligent discussions with other foodies who felt as underwhelmed as I. In short, they "understood" the topic of discussion.

It appears you believe dining at Per Se is an example of conspicuous consumption and is not worth the cost. Fine. My question to you is, how can you engage in a discussion without understanding the topic?

Dr Bob G wrote:
Do the people who dine at Per Se do it because they are genuinely knowledgeable foodies, or because they want to tell their friends that they had been there? Is it merely another case of conspicuous consumption?
Dr Bob G ...

Your question is quite general, so I have to answer, Yes! and Yes! Both types might dine there. This is a democratic society comprised of people (Foodies) who are quite knowledgeable and enthusiastic regarding their subject. In addition, there are the dilatants (Emperors) that might choose the same restaurant, but not for the same reasons as their counterparts. Their knowledge might be minimal to non-existent. When asked the difference between Balantine and Galantine, a dilatant’s response might be that they were a Vaudeville act from the 1930’s, and Balantine was the one with the pencil thin moustache!

People in restaurants don’t wear labels stating their reason for dining at the said establishment. However, rest assured that their reasons are as varied as the amount of items on the menu.

As Kirk suggested, there is only one way to find out. Moreover, if you choose to do so, I will guarantee you that there will be diners from both camps sitting within your earshot. In the case of Per Se, I would think the percentages would greatly be in favor of the “Foodies” as they are a committed group of enthusiasts, always wanting to expand their experience. And, sometimes a restaurant is worthy of the educated praise it receives.

KirkM and Kenard,

I almost always agree with both of you on these posts. And I hate to do this...but here I have to part ways with you. I cannot imagine (nor afford) a meal costing that much. We all have our "addictions" and I guess for some that would be a meal at restaurants like Per Se. It just seems way too indulgent and - how shall I say this - unnecessary. It also seems like prices are set at a point that insures exclusivity. That is certainly the right of Thomas Keller et al to do so. I certainly hope that he gives copious amounts of money to charities and food drives in order to balance his karma.

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À votre santé

On a similar vein, earlier this year we had the opportunity to visit Inn at Little Washington on a tour of the area from Charlottesville back to D.C. This restaurant had been on our list of 'must visits' for quite a few years and we finally did it...Well, it was indeed a lovely experience overall but not incrementally.
Our check came out to just under $600. for our prix fixe menu options including a half bottle of good wine (my companion does not drink). Fine, but I left these lush surroundings feeling that I was not fully satiated nor satisfied....We did know what we were getting into for sure...no surprise there. But the value/price quotient was not in place as far as we were concerned.
I say this with all respect to Chef Patrick O'Connell and his years of wonderful work...

Linda,

I appreciate and always enjoy reading your comments, and I agree we all have our addictions! My addiction is seeking out outstanding restaurants in any given city. This does not necessarily mean the most expensive, and Per Se is not the most expensive in NYC. Unfortunately, creativity from exceptional chefs occasionally comes with a hefty price tag.

You correctly state that dining at restaurants such as Per Se is unnecessary. But Linda, is dining out necessary at all? The obvious answer is no, but it is a decision we all make from time-to-time for enjoyment, entertainment, education - or on special occasions, to indulge a very special someone or our friends. I view dining at restaurants such as Per Se, Le Bernardin, Daniel, etc., as an educational experience or a place to indulge close friends. Why? Because so few chefs in the world possess such culinary skills. They are the best of the best, and I am always amazed with what they put forward - their vision is like no other. 

As far as pricing, I do not believe it is for exclusivity, but rather a sign of the tremendous amount of overhead it takes to employ a small army of gifted assistants and sourcing limited products for maintaining high standards of quality. At Per Se, they have a tasting menu of 9 courses for $275 - including service tip. Is this expensive? Yes, however I feel there is value given the circumstances.

Also, individual priorities are different, and one may spend more in other endeavors. If a person were an opera aficionado, how much would they have had to pay to be part of an intimate audience to hear Luciano Pavarotti in his prime? I suspect significantly more than dining at Per Se.

BTW, what is your addiction?

La Linda ....

As always, it’s good to hear from you. As you know, I greatly respect your opinion, even such as this case, that we are not in agreement. Your disdain for ultra-expensive restaurants is no different from certain things that others and I might not accept because we don’t comprehend or agree with its’ value in our lives. Yet, I/we accept (perhaps grudgingly) the consumer’s right to spend their money according to their desire.

I hear of “Fashionistas” spending $2000 - $3000 for a pair of shoes. I love my feet, but I don’t find it necessary to place them in such costly footwear. In addition, I don’t think Manolo Blahnik (sp.), et. al. should be obliged to copiously donate to charities because their product is far more costly than others of its’ ilk. Their prices are also set at exclusivity, but they’ve earned the right to charge those prices in our capitalist society

The point I would like to convey is that there is no formula as to what the price of creativity might be. And, great food, like great fashion, is a creative medium. In the art world, I’ve seen paintings that in my opinion would at best used to line the floor of a parakeet cage, provided that the parakeet was not particularly finicky. Yet these paintings command incredibly high prices, which people are willing to pay.

It’s understandable not to understand people’s willingness to pay for certain things, but life seems to abound with these situations. To quote from “The King and I” ....... “‘Tis a puzzlement”!!!

KirkM and Kenard,

I would agree with both of you that each person spend whatever they want/need to on whatever they please...food, clothing, shoes. And while I love a good meal, I don't understand spending that sort of money for a meal. That's just me, with no disdain whatsoever toward others. 

However, we live in a country that is so plentiful in so many ways and yet so many people must go without. Without food, clean clothing, shelter. In light of recent corporate banking and insurance debacles I'm sure that even more people will be in dire straits. So, Kenard, I do think that the Kellers and the Manolos of this world should be quite generous and charitable. And some should give more copiously than others ;-) I think that it is morally incumbent upon each of us to give something, anything, to someone in need. I am fairly certain that you will agree with that point. And if I spend too much money on a pair of Prada shoes... after a few seasons I will donate them to Housing Works in NYC.  

My point in the earlier post was that, although I won't spend that amount of money on a single meal - I think that the chef/owner of that type of establishment should thank the universe that there are people who support them and their creativity and excellence...and that they should, in turn, give back to someone less fortunate.

I'm still an idealist.

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À votre santé

Linda,

I absolutely agree with your philosophy, that is why I spend my earnings at establishments who do give back. You will be glad to know Thomas Keller has supported many charities and their events - as do other acclaimed chefs in the U.S.

Eric Ripert, Joel Robuchon, Nobu Matsuhisa, Sam Mason, and Daniel Humm just participated at Wolfgang Puck's event in Beverly Hills, CA, a couple of weeks ago, which has been instrumental in raising more than $15 million for Los Angeles Chapters of Meals on Wheels since 1982.

Kirk,

Thank you for sharing that information. That really is wonderful!!!!

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À votre santé

La Linda ...

I thought your original post was intended only to paint Thomas Keller as a profiteering business villain. This is why I brought Manolo’s name into the discussion. Now, that your clarification explains you feel that all successful people should display a generous social conscience, I most definitely agree with you. Your idealism is admirable and I’m sure frustrating and anger inducing at times.

Very often when having to choose from multiple places to dine, I will ask which restaurant participates in the Citymeals On Wheels (or similar) program. The one that does will always get the nod. Aside from what we might personally donate, I do believe all of us should support those highly visible individuals who do share their wealth. It becomes our duty to make note who are the generous players, and to support their continued success. That benefits all of society.

Kenard & KirkM,

So...even though we disagree somewhat on the details...we do agree on the big picture after all!! I knew we couldn't be that far apart!

Have a fantastic weekend!

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À votre santé

You can't just look at the menu. You have to try the food. Food is just one part of the equation with service, atmosphere, etc.

I'm not rich but eating is my passion. I save to try the best restaurants. I've eaten at PerSe 4 times. I can say every time it was worth every penny and look forward to eating there again. It is by far the best restaurant in NYC!